******* REVIVAL FIRE!!! *******
I’ve never posted here before. I am a woman minister in Western Massachusetts, planting a new—and new kind of—church.
I had to write to say you’re not alone in your feelings. Do you know the book by Dan Kimball: They Like Jesus But Not the Church?
There is a movement afoot of people who are taking back the Gospel message of Jesus from the big institutions. It’s called the Emergent Dialogue or Emergent church. If you’re not familiar, you might want to check it out. It’s very fluid, mostly young, and full of wonderful people and ideas. Check out a guy called Shane who wrote Jesus for President, or Brian McLaren (a true Christian, hated by some people, who even call him the anti-Christ because he is for social justice) author of Everything Must Change. Go to a website called Emergent Village and find a cohort of people in your area who you can talk and walk with. Go to the Emergent Conference in Philadelphia in November. Find us. YOU ARE NOT ALONE. When two or more are gathered...He is there.
Blessings on your journey,
Hunter Roberts
On 7/16/08 3:40 AM, "Daniel Black" <takeustotheriver@juno.com> wrote:
******* REVIVAL FIRE!!! *******
It has been a long time since I have posted on this forum as well, but felt like jumping in this discussion as I find myself in a similar place in my own journey in Jesus. I've gone through a recent season where I had to realize that my relationships with people were more important than a commitment to systems and institutions. I have found it freeing to serve God, my friends, and those Papa brings to my path in my journey when I no longer focus on institutional Christianity and the building up of a ministry, and simply made an adjustment to the pursuit of walking in true and Divine Love and serving my fellow man/woman (ie whoever is in front of me). (I do have a ministry as a missionary to Asia, yet it is no longer the primary focus of my life to feed the ministry, but instead use the ministry to feed and love others). I have found myself in the middle of what both Kathy and Julia talk about. I love the church and the experience of God I find there, but at the same time, I have watched the system and institution of church consume, corrupt, and hurt many (myself included on all accounts). Two books have really helped me in my journey at this time. The first is the book, "So You Don't Want To Go To Church Anymore" by Jake Colsen and the second is "The Shack" by William Peterson. Both I highly recommend and can be picked up in most bookstores (I picked mine up at Bethel Church). In it explores the idea of genuine relationships not built around structures and institutions but around genuine love in Christ. I think that it explores both of what Kathy and Julia are talking about. As for me, I will always love the church and the genuine corporate experience of worshipping God there. I was raised there, and the people within are family, yet I will no longer be disillusioned by and refuse to return to serving the ever-consuming system and institution that benefits no one but itself. At the same time, I refuse to allow the sting and burn of religion to keep me away from the lifesource of my family and the power of a corporate experience with God. My life within Christ has abounded all the more as I move ever more toward Him., His face is more real as He becomes the genuine focus of my journey. This is where I am finding myself in the midst of it all, pursuing love, loving God and loving others, knowing it in it's hight, it's width, and it's depth, I pray that this is where each road leads to, wether you are within the four walls or outside, that you learn how to love, for when it comes down to the end, that's what counts. Thanks for both your comments, Julia and Kathy!
Pursuing love,
Daniel Black
On Tue, 15 Jul 2008 21:57:05 -0700 "Kathy & Lester" <porter4@frontiernet.net> writes:
******* REVIVAL FIRE!!! *******
An honest response to your post:
your response left me feeling very sad and if I didn't know better, I would feel hopeless toward the church, the bride of Christ. I may not be as traveled or educated as you, I actually live in a wonderful small community that you talked about. I refuse to believe all churches and church leaders are as you say.
Although I do see some as you say, I see many who are not. I have not gone along in Church ministry unwounded either. Iam in leadership and a woman, I have been enncouraged and supported by many men. I learned to be secure in who I am in Christ.. Because of that I helped to change their thinking on the role of a woman in church and now I hear verbally their blessings and admittance of the Lord's anointing on my life.
A body of believers is where we mature and grow together in our love relationships with Christ and eachother. Although this at times has been the hardest thing ever, we(my small body of believers ) have all hung in there. We have ventured out to larger places and we have learned a great deal and are loved and supported by these larger ministries. I see geniune love there, these were all outside denominational barriers.
To paint such a gloomy and hopeless picture of the body shows me you still have much pain inside of you. Those things need to be healed. And to encourage someone in their hopelessness toward the church and church leadership, is scary. We must recognize that they(leadership) too are growing and maturing and aren't the all in all, but moving forward line upon line and precept upon precept just as we are. We need to know they sometimes are wounded also, and must love them through the pain not esteeming ourselves higher than others (thinking, that they should minister to us, not ever us ministering to them) .
We are to love eachother as Christ has loved us, and He died for us, He died for the Bride. As long as the Bride is wounded like this, and the pain is spreading, then she is not spottless. If we can't love eachother how can we show others His love? They will know us by the love that we have for eachother. Love isn't easy, love is sometimes painful. Jesus knows the ultimate betrayal from His loved ones.
I do feel because we as a nation move around so much, we take the easy way out and leave. Instead of staying and working things out, Godly confrontation. Many people aren't committed to a Body or a community anymore. Committment, covenant--- that's were the rubber meets the road.
I submitt this humbly. I feel you know more about Aaron's situtation than I, I don't read all the posts and sometimes we do need to move on but many times I think we need to stay and work things out. Again, I know this from personal experience,, and know, all things are possible with those who believe.
I have found all those things, love and community and deep freindships, I am a common person I can't be that rare, can I?
Kathy
----- Original Message -----
----- Original Message -----
From: julia loren <mailto:juliascribes@yahoo.com>
To: A forum for Revival Discussion and Posts <mailto:revival-fire@hub.xc.org>
Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2008 8:17 PM
Subject: [revival-fire] An honest response to Aaron and others who want to go into exile & leave the church
******* REVIVAL FIRE!!! *******
HI Aaron, I read your last posting on Revival Fire and your last email to me. Actually, I’ve been thinking about you a lot. I know that your statement about “going into exile” is largely because you feel hurt, rejected and ignored. That’s ok. I was going to respond personally but I know that a lot of people might be in your position so let me offer my opinion – since you asked – publicly. I think it is great to go into “exile” once in awhile. In the wilderness, you get a very different perspective about what you are really wanting out of life and what you should do about it. I think that most of us go into the church when we are young because we find healing and support there, some excitement in the worship and the wonder of opening up to this amazing God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit. We give everyone all we got and pray like crazy fools for anyone on the street because we are so in love with Jesus and full of the Holy Spirit. Then, we discover that our spiritual gifts start getting developed and noticed! Before long, church leaders want to encourage our gifts in order to help serve their vision of building their ministry. Meanwhile, you think that you are headed for full time ministry. Reality sets in when you suddenly realize that leaders want you to serve them; but don’t want to care for you. It is at that point where hurt and bitterness start to worm their way into your mind and twist your thinking. Yeah…it sucks that you didn’t get the recognition you hoped for. However, it is also a good thing. It just means that God is steering you in a different direction. You may be outgrowing the group that you’ve been a part of. Or you may have some personal healing needs that are not going to be ministered to in that group. Your needs are screaming to be met and there is no one there who can meet them. There is an appalling lack of fathers and mothers in the church who can mentor you. And you need one…and the pastor of any church cannot (for many reasons) be “dad” for you. So my dear brother, go into “exile” – but make it a prayerful journey. Dare to be different. Leave in peace & don’t burn your bridges. The contacts you make in ministry school or college or work tend to be the ones that you keep later in life. The people who ask me to minister in their churches are mostly those who attended church with me and were part of my community years ago when I was in my 20s. It is all about building relationships and alliances and maintaining them. As for your gifts, can they not be used in the world – perhaps mo’bettah than in the church? I lost my standing as a “local” and “regional” prophetic minister when I left Seattle years ago. Those who were in ministry at that time have also moved on. That is no longer my gig. And it has taken me a long time to get used to the idea that the church’s loss is the world’s gain as I use my gifts at work and when I travel, ministering to individuals who don’t even know my name….or care that I have one. See the problem with the church in the US culture is that everyone is soooo focused on building their ministry that they don’t know how to defer to another’s gifting or work as a team – honoring one another and supporting one another. The nature of the institution is that it has to maintain itself by turning inward and becoming self-protective to survive. Not many outsiders are ever allowed into ministry in any given institution. And in this era of conference junkies and media promo overkill; we are seeing the demise of the institutional church and the heart cry of people to flock to the latest man of the hour / the power hour / and a jolt of the Holy Ghost. Frankly, conferences bring in a lot of money so pastors host the big names to keep paying for the building. People either want no relationship so their church is an occasional conference; or they want deeper relationships and get frustrated with the institutional church. Which one are you? If you crave deeper relationships, you need to start building them somewhere. Honestly, I believe the only pure ministers / pastors and prophets are missionaries who are deeply mature in their love affair with God, who are laboring in obscure fields out of sheer love for other people - expecting nothing in return. Everyone in America seems compromised by making a living or a name for themselves. As for the likes of you and me; our hearts cry out for the covering and compassion of community, for deeper relationship, to be blessed and celebrated rather than tolerated or ignored. So, I encourage you to find a small community that is not part of the rock and roll river church that needs hype to keep going. Find a group of friends. Find someone to fall in love with. Cease striving and know that God loves you – no matter what you do and don’t do. Charismatics and religious people tend to forget that God created this earth for us to enjoy. I’ve traveled all over the world with work and for fun - explored the earth from the mountain tops of the world to the depths of the sea and I tell you, I’d rather preach to the fishes and sing with the birds than strive for some elusive glory in ministry. The two most important commands – love God and your neighbor. That is all that matters… Having said that, I will be honest with you. The church treats very few people well. Leaders do not relate well to anyone other than other leaders. I am pretty well tolerated among leaders because writers have a needed skill that can help them build their ministry. Businessmen have a needed skill (or are courted by leaders for their money) so they are pretty well tolerated – if they support the ministry. Families are well tolerated because they provide income to the ministry and stability of membership. Single adults in the church are seen as society’s castaways and are treated horribly after the age of 30. I got tired of how I was treated as a single woman and left the church for a few years. Then God called me back for a season –to write books. The problem with writing books is that unless you have a speaking platform, you cannot make a living at it. During this season I’ve thought perhaps God was calling back into prophetic ministry since I was writing and doing some ministry along those lines. But single women (particularly bold, intelligent women) are threatening to men in leadership. And after the last 4 months of seeking wisdom and advice from leaders in various streams, I’ve discovered something – the very act of asking questions inadvertently became a testing of my relationships and contacts. Not one man or woman in leadership (local or international leaders) has offered any wisdom or support to direct me into this next season of ministry. And in fact, a few of them are really struggling so they are not able to offer any encouragement. See, my writing gifts helped serve them…but if I am not writing about them…they have no desire to relate to me. I had a very gifted male friend (who aspires to having a big name ministry) ask me how I got so many contacts with leaders and I told him that it was simple – I have something they want – writing skills and contacts to help boost their image in media. I have no illusions that they give a rip about who I am. I use my skills to build the kingdom and honor God – not to build my own name or another’s platform. So, I have been in an intense 4 month period of prayer, seeking wisdom from others, and trying to decide what is most important in this next season of my life. And it is not writing Christian books or developing a speaking platform so I can settle into what I thought was my calling. What is most important is finding the kind of community that will cover and bless me. I still haven’t found that. I’ve had it at different times in my life but people move one and communities dissolve in our mobile society. Maintaining community is hard. But maintaining friendships is a necessity. My closest friends live all over the US. I so badly wish I could have them in the same neighborhood. Building and sustaining community is going to be the greatest challenge for your generation. So, my advice to you young man: Go into exile – and find your life. Get a job skill and get really skilled at it. God will call you when He needs you to help build the kingdom and honor Him in some way – and it may be just for a short season. Meanwhile, get some practice with a slingshot in the field and kill a lion while you are in exile. Learn how to build tents before you start roaming the world – you’ll need a global work skill no matter if God calls you into full time ministry or not. Find a community that likes you just for who you are. Fall in love and get married while you are young. Focus on love and work – and minister outside the church. And if you have prophetic dreams and visions of a certain theme – perhaps that is a call into a certain line of work rather than a call to be a prophet. Hey, if I were in my 20s again, I would take a group of friends traveling around the world and minister to people in youth hostels….I wouldn’t waste away in a church…I’d take it to the streets….and explore and enjoy the world while I could…And in fact, I did just that. Go out in joy – He is with you! Stay in touch little brother! Julia www.julialoren.net <http://www.julialoren.net>
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